The McCain Obama Debate. Word for word with Cobb's consciousness on just about every paragraph. Making me crazy, making me late for work, but this is the moment.
BROKAW: Good evening from
Tonight's debate is the only one with a town hall format. The
Gallup Organization chose 80 uncommitted voters from the
From all of these questions -- and from tens of thousands
submitted online -- I have selected a long list of excellent questions on
domestic and foreign policy.
Neither the commission nor the candidates have seen the
questions. And although we won't be able to get to all of them tonight, we
should have a wide-ranging discussion one month before the election.
Each candidate will have two minutes to respond to a common
question, and there will be a one-minute follow-up. The audience here in the
hall has agreed to be polite, and attentive, no cheering or outbursts. Those of
you at home, of course, are not so constrained.
Sounds like a game show. There’s no way to intelligently do all
this in two or three minutes. Yike.
The only exception in the hall is right now, as it is my
privilege to introduce the candidates, Senator Barack
Obama of
Gentlemen?
(APPLAUSE)
Gentlemen, we want to get underway immediately, if we can. Since
you last met at Ole Miss 12 days ago, the world has changed a great deal, and
not for the better. We still don't know where the bottom is at this time.
As you might expect, many of the questions that we have from
here in the hall tonight and from online have to do with the American economy
and, in fact, with global economic conditions.
I understand that you flipped a coin.
And, Senator Obama, you will begin
tonight. And we're going to have our first question from over here in Section A
from Alan Schaefer (ph).
Alan (ph)?
QUESTION: With the economy on
the downturn and retired and older citizens and workers losing their incomes,
what's the fastest, most positive solution to bail these people out of the
economic ruin?
OBAMA: Well, Alan (ph),
thank you very much for the question. I want to first, obviously, thank
I think everybody knows now we are in the worst financial crisis
since the Great Depression. And a lot of you I think are worried about your
jobs, your pensions, your retirement accounts, your
ability to send your child or your grandchild to college.
So what about businesses?
And I believe this is a final verdict on the failed economic
policies of the last eight years, strongly promoted by President Bush and
supported by Senator McCain, that essentially said that we should strip away
regulations, consumer protections, let the market run wild, and prosperity
would rain down on all of us.
Running wild? Some examples of deregulation?
Industry by industry please…
It hasn't worked out that way. And so now we've got to take some
decisive action.
OBAMA: Now, step one was a
rescue package that was passed last week. We've got to make sure that works
properly. And that means strong oversight, making sure that investors,
taxpayers are getting their money back and treated as investors.
Huh?
It means that we are cracking down on CEOs and making sure that
they're not getting bonuses or golden parachutes as a consequence of this
package. And, in fact, we just found out that AIG (NYSE:AIG)
, a company that got a bailout, just a week after they got help went on
a $400,000 junket.
It’s a corporate thing. You wouldn’t understand. I worked for a
company 1/1000th the size of AIG and we do that kind of junket. OK
well half that.
And I'll tell you what, the Treasury should demand that money
back and those executives should be fired. But that's only step one. The
middle-class need a rescue package. And that means tax
cuts for the middle-class.
Who’s going to fire them, you? Is that the kind of President you
want to be. Just fire executives you don’t like?
It means help for homeowners so that they can stay in their
homes. It means that we are helping state and local governments set up road
projects and bridge projects that keep people in their jobs.
And then long-term we've got to fix our health care system,
we've got to fix our energy system that is putting such an enormous burden on
families. You need somebody working for you and you've got to have somebody in
Washington who is thinking about the middle class and not just those who can
afford to hire lobbyists.
BROKAW: Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Well, thank you,
Tom. Thank you,
And, Alan (ph), thank you for your question. You go to the heart
of
Now, I have a plan to fix this problem and it has got to do with
energy independence. We've got to stop sending $700 billion a year to countries
that don't want us very -- like us very much. We have to keep Americans' taxes
low. All Americans' taxes low. Let's not raise taxes on anybody today.
Non sequitur. We’re talking about
the bailout here.
We obviously have to stop this spending spree that's going on in
Off by a factor of four on
You know that home values of retirees
continues to decline and people are no longer able to afford their
mortgage payments. As president of the United States, Alan, I would order the
secretary of the treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages in
America and renegotiate at the new value of those homes -- at the diminished
value of those homes and let people be able to make those -- be able to make
those payments and stay in their homes.
That’s only part of the problem. How much is not covered by the
700B? You have to fix the bank insolvencies first.
Is it expensive? Yes. But we all know, my friends, until we
stabilize home values in
Creating jobs… blah.
I know how the do that, my friends. And it's my proposal, it's
not Senator Obama's proposal, it's not President
Bush's proposal. But I know how to get
BROKAW: Senator, we have one
minute for a discussion here. Obviously the powers of the treasury secretary
have been greatly expanded. The most powerful officer in the
cabinet now. Hank Paulson says he won't stay on. Who do you have in mind
to appoint to that very important post?
Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Not you, Tom.
(LAUGHTER)
BROKAW: No, with good
reason.
MCCAIN: You know, that's a tough question and there's a lot of qualified
Americans. But I think the first criteria, Tom, would have to be somebody who
immediately Americans identify with, immediately say, we can trust that
individual.
A supporter of Senator Obama's is
Warren Buffett. He has already weighed in and helped
stabilize some of the difficulties in the markets and with companies and
corporations, institutions today.
Good answer.
I like Meg Whitman, she knows what it's
like to be out there in the marketplace. She knows how to create jobs. Meg
Whitman was CEO of a company that started with 12 people and is now 1.3 million
people in
Bad answer.
But the point is it's going to have to be somebody who inspires
trust and confidence. Because the problem in
BROKAW: All right. Senator
McCain -- Senator Obama, who do you have in mind for
treasury secretary?
OBAMA: Well,
Prosperity is not just going to trickle down. We've got to help
the middle class.
Say the word ‘system’. Go ahead try it. The system is broken, not
just the middle class. This is not about prosperity, it’s about solvency.
OBAMA: And we've -- you
know, Senator McCain and I have some fundamental disagreements on the economy,
starting with Senator McCain's statement earlier that he thought the
fundamentals of the economy were sound.
This is a rolling recession, starting with housing, now with
finance. The software industry is just peachy. Hospitals aren’t going broke. How about you Obama?
You getting laid off any time soon?
Part of the problem here is that for many of you, wages and
incomes have flat-lined. For many of you, it is getting harder and harder to
save, harder and harder to retire.
And that's why, for example, on tax policy, what I want to do is
provide a middle class tax cut to 95 percent of working Americans, those who
are working two jobs, people who are not spending enough time with their kids,
because they are struggling to make ends meet.
Senator McCain is right that we've got to stabilize housing
prices. But underlying that is loss of jobs and loss of income. That's
something that the next treasury secretary is going to have to work on.
BROKAW: Senator Obama, thank you very much.
May I remind both of you, if I can, that we're operating under
rules that you signed off on and when we have a discussion, it really is to be
confined within about a minute or so.
We're going to go now, Senator McCain, to the next question from
you from the hall here, and it comes from Oliver Clark (ph), who is over here
in section F.
Oliver?
QUESTION: Well, Senators,
through this economic crisis, most of the people that I know have had a
difficult time. And through this bailout package, I was wondering what it is
that's going to actually help those people out.
MCCAIN: Well, thank you,
Oliver, and that's an excellent question, because as you just described it,
bailout, when I believe that it's rescue, because -- because of the greed and
excess in Washington and Wall Street, Main Street was paying a very heavy
price, and we know that.
No he didn’t say
I left my campaign and suspended it to go back to
Smart move. Weak
legislation.
But you know, one of the real catalysts, really the match that
lit this fire was Fannie Mae (NYSE:FNM) and Freddie Mac. (NYSE:FRE) I'll bet
you, you may never even have heard of them before this crisis.
Yes I have.
But you know, they're the ones that, with the encouragement of
Senator Obama and his cronies and his friends in
Washington, that went out and made all these risky loans, gave them to people
that could never afford to pay back.
And you know, there were some of us
that stood up two years ago and said we've got to enact legislation to fix
this. We've got to stop this greed and excess.
Meanwhile, the Democrats in the Senate and some -- and some
members of Congress defended what Fannie and Freddie were doing. They resisted
any change.
All correct. Hmm. Finally
a good point.
Meanwhile, they were getting all kinds of money in campaign
contributions. Senator Obama was the second highest
recipient of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac money in history -- in history.
Say what? I find this difficult to believe.
So this rescue package means that we will stabilize markets, we
will shore up these institutions. But it's not enough. That's why we're going
to have to go out into the housing market and we're going to have to buy up
these bad loans and we're going to have to stabilize home values, and that way,
Americans, like Alan, can realize the American dream and stay in their home.
But Fannie and Freddie were the catalysts, the match that
started this forest fire. There were some of us -- there were some of us that
stood up against it. There were others who took a hike.
BROKAW: Senator Obama?
OBAMA: Well, Oliver, first,
let me tell you what's in the rescue package for you. Right now, the credit
markets are frozen up and what that means, as a practical matter, is that small
businesses and some large businesses just can't get loans.
Ah. Now we’re talking about business.
If they can't get a loan, that means that they can't make
payroll. If they can't make payroll, then they may end up having to shut their
doors and lay people off.
And if you imagine just one company trying to deal with that,
now imagine a million companies all across the country.
So it could end up having an adverse effect on everybody, and
that's why we had to take action. But we shouldn't have been there in the first
place.
Now, I've got to correct a little bit of Senator McCain's
history, not surprisingly. Let's, first of all, understand that the biggest
problem in this whole process was the deregulation of the financial system.
Senator McCain, as recently as March, bragged about the fact that he is a
deregulator. On the other hand, two years ago, I said that we've got a
sub-prime lending crisis that has to be dealt with.
I wrote to Secretary Paulson, I wrote to Federal Reserve
Chairman Bernanke, and told them this is something we
have to deal with, and nobody did anything about it.
Whoo. You wrote a letter. Me too.
A year ago, I went to Wall Street and said we've got to reregulate, and nothing happened.
Why do you suppose they don’t listen to you Barack?
OBAMA: And Senator McCain
during that period said that we should keep on deregulating because that's how
the free enterprise system works.
Specifics please.
Now, with respect to Fannie Mae, what Senator McCain didn't
mention is the fact that this bill that he talked about wasn't his own bill. He
jumped on it a year after it had been introduced and it never got passed.
And I never promoted Fannie Mae. In fact, Senator McCain's
campaign chairman's firm was a lobbyist on behalf of Fannie Mae, not me.
So -- but, look, you're not interested in hearing politicians
pointing fingers. What you're interested in is trying to figure out, how is
this going to impact you?
This is not the end of the process; this is the beginning of the
process. And that's why it's going to be so important for us to work with
homeowners to make sure that they can stay in their homes.
The secretary already has the power to do that in the rescue
package, but it hasn't been exercised yet. And the next president has to make
sure that the next Treasury secretary is thinking about how to strengthen you
as a home buyer, you as a homeowner, and not simply think about bailing out
banks on Wall Street.
It’s not a bailout.
BROKAW: Senator Obama, time for a discussion. I'm going to begin with you.
Are you saying to Mr. Clark (ph) and to the other members of the American
television audience that the American economy is going to get much worse before
it gets better and they ought to be prepared for that?
OBAMA: No, I am confident
about the American economy. But we are going to have to have some leadership
from
Oh? Is that what fires the engines of production?
The problem is we still have a archaic,
20th-century regulatory system for 21st-century financial markets. We're going
to have to coordinate with other countries to make sure that whatever actions
we take work.
Huh?
But most importantly, we're going to have to help ordinary
families be able to stay in their homes, make sure that they can pay their
bills, deal with critical issues like health care and energy, and we're going
to have to change the culture in Washington so that lobbyists and special
interests aren't driving the process and your voices aren't being drowned out.
Hoo
brother. Say one thing about the economy other than ‘ordinary families’.
Show some economic chops.
BROKAW: Senator McCain, in
all candor, do you think the economy is going to get
worse before it gets better?
MCCAIN: I think it depends
on what we do. I think if we act effectively, if we stabilize the housing
market -- which I believe we can, if we go out and buy up these bad loans, so
that people can have a new mortgage at the new value of their home -- I think
if we get rid of the cronyism and special interest influence in Washington so
we can act more effectively.
My friend, I'd like you to see the letter that a group of
senators and I wrote warning exactly of this crisis. Senator Obama's name was not on that letter.
You wrote a letter. Wow.
The point is -- the point is that we can fix our economy.
Americans' workers are the best in the world. They're the fundamental aspect of
They're the most innovative. They're the best -- they're most --
have best -- we're the best exporters. We're the best importers. They're most
effective. They are the best workers in the world.
OK import and export. That’s a part of the economy too.
And we've got to give them a chance. They've got -- we've got to
give them a chance to do their best again. And they are the innocent bystanders
here in what is the biggest financial crisis and challenge of our time. We can
do it.
Yay
team. Whatever.
BROKAW: Thank you, Senator
McCain.
We're going to continue over in Section F, as it turns out.
Senator Obama, this is a question from
you from Theresa Finch (ph).
Theresa (ph)?
QUESTION: How can we trust
either of you with our money when both parties got -- got us into this global
economic crisis?
OBAMA: Well, look, I
understand your frustration and your cynicism, because while you've been
carrying out your responsibilities -- most of the people here, you've got a
family budget. If less money is coming in, you end up making cuts. Maybe you
don't go out to dinner as much. Maybe you put off buying a new car.
That's not what happens in
But I think it's important just to remember a little bit of
history. When George Bush came into office, we had surpluses. And now we have
half-a-trillion-dollar deficit annually.
When George Bush came into office, our debt -- national debt was
around $5 trillion. It's now over $10 trillion. We've almost doubled it. And so
while it's true that nobody's completely innocent here, we have had over the
last eight years the biggest increases in deficit spending and national debt in
our history. And Senator McCain voted for four out of five of those George Bush
budgets.
Bam! Pow! Smack!
So here's what I would do. I'm going to spend some money on the
key issues that we've got to work on.
OBAMA: You know, you may have seen your health care premiums go up. We've
got to reform health care to help you and your budget.
We are going to have to deal with energy because we can't keep
on borrowing from the Chinese and sending money to
We've got to invest in college affordability. So we're going to
have to make some investments, but we've also got to make spending cuts. And
what I've proposed, you'll hear Senator McCain say, well, he's proposing a
whole bunch of new spending, but actually I'm cutting more than I'm spending so
that it will be a net spending cut.
That’s not what I heard.
The key is whether or not we've got priorities that are working
for you as opposed to those who have been dictating the policy in
Dictating policy? So what does Congress do? Oh right. Nothing.
BROKAW: Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Well, Theresa (ph), thank you. And I can see why you feel that cynicism and
mistrust, because the system in
I have advocated and taken on the special interests, whether
they be the big money people by reaching across the aisle and working with
Senator Feingold on campaign finance reform, whether it being a variety of
other issues, working with Senator Lieberman on trying to address climate
change.
I have a clear record of bipartisanship. The situation today cries
out for bipartisanship. Senator Obama has never taken
on his leaders of his party on a single issue. And we need to reform.
Pow. Bam.
Smack!
And so let's look at our records as well as our rhetoric. That's
really part of your mistrust here. And now I suggest that maybe you go to some
of these organizations that are the watchdogs of what we do, like the Citizens Against Government Waste or the National Taxpayers Union or
these other organizations that watch us all the time.
I don't expect you to watch every vote. And you know what you'll
find? This is the most liberal big-spending record in the United States Senate.
I have fought against excessive spending and outrages. I have fought to reduce
the earmarks and eliminate them. Do you know that Senator Obama
has voted for -- is proposing $860 billion of new spending now? New spending. Do you know that he voted for every increase
in spending that I saw come across the floor of the
United States Senate while we were working to eliminate these pork barrel earmarks?
Pow! Again!
He voted for nearly a billion dollars in pork barrel earmark
projects, including, by the way, $3 million for an overhead projector at a
planetarium in
That’s a drop in the bucket, and I like planetariums.
I think you have to look at my record and you have to look at
his. Then you have to look at our proposals for our economy, not $860 billion
in new spending, but for the kinds of reforms that keep people in their jobs,
get middle-income Americans working again, and getting our economy moving
again.
You're going to be examining our proposals tonight and in the
future, and energy independence is a way to do that,
is one of them. And drilling offshore and nuclear power are two vital elements
of that. And I've been supporting those and I know how to fix this economy, and
eliminate our dependence on foreign oil, and stop sending $700 billion a year
overseas.
OK that’s actually pretty good.
BROKAW: We've run out of
time. We have this one-minute discussion period going on here.
There are new economic realities out there that everyone in this
hall and across this country understands that there are going to have to be
some choices made. Health policies, energy policies, and entitlement reform,
what are going to be your priorities in what order? Which of those will be your
highest priority your first year in office and which will follow in sequence?
Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: The three priorities
were health...
BROKAW: The three -- health
care, energy, and entitlement reform: Social Security and Medicare. In what
order would you put them in terms of priorities?
MCCAIN: I think you can work
on all three at once, Tom. I think it's very important that reform our
entitlement programs.
My friends, we are not going to be able to provide the same
benefit for present-day workers that we are going -- that present-day retirees
have today. We're going to have to sit down across the table, Republican and
Democrat, as we did in 1983 between Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill.
I know how to do that. I have a clear record of reaching across
the aisle, whether it be Joe Lieberman or Russ
Feingold or Ted Kennedy or others. That's my clear record.
Uh. Now that’s rather what I’ve been talking about
all along. This is why I support John McCain, right there. Everybody knows his
best buddy is a Democrat.
We can work on nuclear power plants. Build a whole bunch of
them, create millions of new jobs. We have to have all of the
above, alternative fuels, wind, tide, solar, natural gas, clean coal
technology. All of these things we can do as Americans and we can take on this
mission and we can overcome it.
Millions of new jobs? Prove it.
MCCAIN: My friends, some of
this $700 billion ends up in the hands of terrorist organizations.
As far as health care is concerned, obviously, everyone is
struggling to make sure that they can afford their premiums and that they can
have affordable and available health care. That's the next issue.
But we can do them all at once. There's no -- and we have to do
them all at once. All three you mentioned are compelling national security
requirements.
BROKAW: I'm trying to play
by the rules that you all established. One minute for discussion.
Senator Obama, if you would give us
your list of priorities, there are some real questions about whether everything
can be done at once.
OBAMA: We're going to have
to prioritize, just like a family has to prioritize. Now, I've listed the
things that I think have to be at the top of the list.
Energy we have to deal with today, because you're paying $3.80
here in
So we've got to deal with that right away. That's why I've
called for an investment of $15 billion a year over 10 years. Our goal should
be, in 10 year's time, we are free of dependence on Middle Eastern oil.
15 Billion how? 15 Billion for what? Are you kidding? Exactly what is 15 Billon going
to do?
And we can do it. Now, when JFK said we're going to the Moon in
10 years, nobody was sure how to do it, but we understood that, if the American
people make a decision to do something, it gets done. So that would be priority
number one.
Health care is priority number two, because that broken health
care system is bad not only for families, but it's making our businesses less
competitive.
And, number three, we've got to deal with education so that our
young people are competitive in a global economy.
But just one point I want to make, Tom. Senator McCain mentioned
looking at our records. We do need to look at our records.
Senator McCain likes to talk about earmarks a lot. And that's
important. I want to go line by line through every item in the federal budget
and eliminate programs that don't work and make sure that those that do work, work better and cheaper.
Line Item Veto. Thank you President Reagan.
But understand this: We also have to look at where some of our
tax revenues are going. So when Senator McCain proposes a $300 billion tax cut,
a continuation not only of the Bush tax cuts, but an additional $200 billion
that he's going to give to big corporations, including big oil companies, $4
billion worth, that's money out of the system.
And so we've got to prioritize both our spending side and our
tax policies to make sure that they're working for you. That's what I'm going
to do as president of the
BROKAW: All right,
gentlemen, I want to just remind you one more time about time. We're going to
have a larger deficit than the federal government does if we don't get this
under control here before too long.
(LAUGHTER)
Senator McCain, for you, we have our first question from the
Internet tonight. A child of the Depression, 78-year-old Fiora (ph) from
Since World War II, we have never been asked to sacrifice
anything to help our country, except the blood of our heroic men and women. As
president, what sacrifices -- sacrifices will you ask every American to make to
help restore the American dream and to get out of the economic morass that
we're now in?
MCCAIN: Well, Fiora (ph), I'm going to ask the American people to
understand that there are some programs that we may have to eliminate.
I first proposed a long time ago that we would have to examine
every agency and every bureaucracy of government. And we're going to have to
eliminate those that aren't working.
That’s what I’m talking about.
I know a lot of them that aren't working. One of them is in
defense spending, because I've taken on some of the defense contractors. I
saved the taxpayers $6.8 billion in a deal for an Air Force tanker that was
done in a corrupt fashion.
Pow.
I believe that we have to eliminate the earmarks. And sometimes
those projects, not -- not the overhead projector that Senator Obama asked for, but some of them that are really good
projects, will have -- will have to be eliminated, as well.
And they'll have to undergo the same scrutiny that all projects
should in competition with others.
So we're going to have to tell the American people that spending
is going to have to be cut in
Blam!
And some of those programs may not grow as much as we would like
for them to, but we can establish priorities with full transparency, with full
knowledge of the American people, and full consultation, not done behind closed
doors and shoving earmarks in the middle of the night into programs that we
don't even -- sometimes we don't even know about until months later.
Yeah!
And, by the way, I want to go back a second.
MCCAIN: Look, we can attack
health care and energy at the same time. We're not -- we're not -- we're not
rifle shots here. We are Americans. We can, with the participation of all
Americans, work together and solve these problems together.
Frankly, I'm not going to tell that person without health
insurance that, "I'm sorry, you'll have to wait." I'm going to tell
you Americans we'll get to work right away and we'll get to work together, and
we can get them all done, because that's what
BROKAW: Senator McCain,
thank you very much.
Senator Obama?
OBAMA: You know, a lot of
you remember the tragedy of 9/11 and where you were on that day and, you know,
how all of the country was ready to come together and make enormous changes to
make us not only safer, but to make us a better country and a more unified
country.
And President Bush did some smart things at the outset, but one
of the opportunities that was missed was, when he
spoke to the American people, he said, "Go out and shop."
That wasn't the kind of call to service that I think the
American people were looking for.
And so it's important to understand that the -- I think the
American people are hungry for the kind of leadership that is going to tackle
these problems not just in government, but outside of government.
Uh oh. Here it comes…
And let's take the example of energy, which we already spoke
about. There is going to be the need for each and every one of us to start
thinking about how we use energy.
I believe in the need for increased oil production. We're going
to have to explore new ways to get more oil, and that includes offshore
drilling. It includes telling the oil companies, that
currently have 68 million acres that they're not using, that either you use
them or you lose them.
Because Obama knows
best.
We're going to have to develop clean coal technology and safe
ways to store nuclear energy.
Do you or do you not support
But each and every one of us can start thinking about how can we
save energy in our homes, in our buildings. And one of the things I want to do
is make sure that we're providing incentives so that you can buy a fuel
efficient car that's made right here in the United States of America, not in
Japan or South Korea, making sure that you are able to weatherize your home or
make your business more fuel efficient.
And that's going to require effort from each and every one of
us.
And the last point I just want to make. I think the young people
of America are especially interested in how they can serve, and that's one of
the reasons why I'm interested in doubling the Peace Corps, making sure that we
are creating a volunteer corps all across this country that can be involved in
their community, involved in military service, so that military families and
our troops are not the only ones bearing the burden of renewing America.
Everybody doubles the Peace Corps. What have they ever done,
really? The Peace Corps is so ineffective they don’t even get taken hostage by
terrorists.
That's something that all of us have to be involved with and
that requires some leadership from
BROKAW: Senator Obama, as we begin, very quickly, our discussion period,
President Bush, you'll remember, last summer, said that "Wall Street got
drunk."
A lot of people now look back and think the federal government
got drunk and, in fact, the American consumers got drunk.
How would you, as president, try to break those bad habits of
too much debt and too much easy credit, specifically, across the board, for
this country, not just at the federal level, but as a model for the rest of the
country, as well?
OBAMA: Well, I think it
starts with
It means -- and I have to, again, repeat this. It means looking
(ph) at the spending side, but also at the revenue side. I mean, Senator McCain
has been talking tough about earmarks, and that's good, but earmarks account
for about $18 billion of our budget.
Now, when Senator McCain is proposing tax cuts that would give
the average Fortune 500 CEO an additional $700,000 in tax cuts, that's not
sharing a burden.
And everybody knows that CEOs are evil.
And so part of the problem, I think, for a lot of people who are
listening here tonight is they don't feel as if they are sharing the burden
with other folks.
I mean, you know, it's tough to ask a teacher who's making
$30,000 or $35,000 a year to tighten her belt when people who are making much
more than her are living pretty high on the hog.
And that's why I think it's important for the president to set a
tone that says all of us are going to contribute, all of us are going to make
sacrifices, and it means that, yes, we may have to cut some spending, although
I disagree with Senator McCain about an across-the- board freeze.
That's an example of an unfair burden sharing. That's using a
hatchet to cut the federal budget.
OBAMA: I want to use a
scalpel so that people who need help are getting help and those of us, like myself and Senator McCain, who don't need help, aren't
getting it.
A scalpel for minor surgery on spending?
That's how we make sure that everybody is willing to make a few
sacrifices.
BROKAW: Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Well, you know,
nailing down Senator Obama's various tax proposals is
like nailing Jell-O to the wall. There has been five
or six of them and if you wait long enough, there will probably be another one.
Ooh burn!
But he wants to raise taxes. My friends, the last president to
raise taxes during tough economic times was Herbert Hoover, and he practiced
protectionism as well, which I'm sure we'll get to at some point.
You know, last year up to this time, we've lost 700,000 jobs in
Where have I heard that before?
Small businesses across
I've got some news, Senator Obama, the
news is bad. So let's not raise anybody's taxes, my friends, and make it be
very clear to you I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy. I am in favor
of leaving the tax rates alone and reducing the tax burden on middle-income
Americans by doubling your tax exemption for every child from $3,500 to $7,000.
I can understand that.
To giving every American a $5,000 refundable tax credit and go
out and get the health insurance you want rather than mandates and fines for
small businesses, as Senator Obama's plan calls for.
And let's create jobs and let's get our economy going again. And let's not
raise anybody's taxes.
BROKAW: Senator Obama, we have another question from the Internet.
OBAMA: Tom, can I respond
to this briefly? Because...
BROKAW: Well, look, guys,
the rules were established by the two campaigns, we worked very hard on this.
This will address, I think, the next question.
OBAMA: The tax issue,
because I think it's very important. Go ahead.
BROKAW: There are lots of
issues that we are going to be dealing with here tonight. And we have a
question from Langdon (ph) in
Since the rules are pretty loose here, I'm going to add my own
to this one. Instead of having a discussion, let me ask you as a coda to that.
Would you give Congress a date certain to reform Social Security and Medicare
within two years after you take office? Because in a bipartisan way, everyone
agrees, that's a big ticking time bomb that will eat us up maybe even more than
the mortgage crisis.
OBAMA: Well, Tom, we're
going to have to take on entitlements and I think we've got to do it quickly.
We're going to have a lot of work to do, so I can't guarantee that we're going
to do it in the next two years, but I'd like to do in the my first term as
president.
But I think it's important to understand, we're not going to
solve Social Security and Medicare unless we understand the rest of our tax
policies. And you know, Senator McCain, I think the "Straight Talk
Express" lost a wheel on that one.
Whoo that’s funny. Not.
So let's be clear about my tax plan and Senator McCain's,
because we're not going to be able to deal with entitlements unless we
understand the revenues coming in. I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent
of Americans, 95 percent.
If you make less than a quarter of a million dollars a year, you
will not see a single dime of your taxes go up. If you make $200,000 a year or
less, your taxes will go down.
Now, Senator McCain talks about small businesses. Only a few
percent of small businesses make more than $250,000 a year. So the vast
majority of small businesses would get a tax cut under my plan.
We’ve heard this controversy before. It’s impossible to evaluate
the truth of any of this in such a debate. Make your point and move on.
And we provide a 50 percent tax credit so that they can buy
health insurance for their workers, because there are an awful lot of small
businesses that I meet across America that want to do right by their workers
but they just can't afford it. Some small business owners, a lot of them, can't
even afford health insurance for themselves.
Now, in contrast, Senator McCain wants to give a $300 billion
tax cut, $200 billion of it to the largest corporations and a hundred thousand
of it -- a hundred billion of it going to people like CEOs on Wall Street. He
wants to give average Fortune 500 CEO an additional $700,000 in tax cuts. That
is not fair. And it doesn't work.
OBAMA: Now, if we get our
tax policies right so that they're good for the middle class, if we reverse the
policies of the last eight years that got us into this fix in the first place
and that Senator McCain supported, then we are going to be in a position to
deal with Social Security and deal with Medicare, because we will have a health
care plan that actually works for you, reduces spending and costs over the long
term, and Social Security that is stable and solvent for all Americans and not
just some.
Are there separate Social Security systems?
BROKAW: Senator McCain, two
years for a reform of entitlement programs?
MCCAIN: Sure. Hey, I'll
answer the question. Look -- look, it's not that hard to fix Social Security,
Tom. It's just...
BROKAW: And Medicare.
MCCAIN: ... tough decisions.
I want to get to Medicare in a second.
Social Security is not that tough. We know what the problems
are, my friends, and we know what the fixes are. We've got to sit down together
across the table. It's been done before.
I saw it done with our -- our wonderful Ronald Reagan, a
conservative from
Senator Obama has never taken on his
party leaders on a single major issue. I've taken them on. I'm not too popular
sometimes with my own party, much less his.
I like the bipartisanship promised.
So Medicare, it's going to be a little tougher. It's going to be
a little tougher because we're talking about very complex and difficult issues.
My friends, what we have to do with Medicare is have a
commission, have the smartest people in America come together, come up with recommendations,
and then, like the base-closing commission idea we had, then we should have
Congress vote up or down.
Not a bad idea, builds on bipartisanship.
Let's not let them fool with it anymore. There's
too much special interests and too many lobbyists working there. So let's have
-- and let's have the American people say, "Fix it for us." Now, just
back on this -- on this tax, you know, again, it's back to our first question
here about rhetoric and record. Senator Obama has
voted 94 times to either increase your taxes or against tax cuts. That's his
record.
When he ran for the United States Senate from
So let's look at our record. I've fought higher taxes. I have
fought excess spending. I have fought to reform government.
Let's look at our records, my friends, and then listen to my
vision for the future of
You’re repeating yourself.
BROKAW: Senator McCain,
thank you very much. I'm going to stick by my part of the pact and not ask a
follow-up here.
The next question does come from the hall for Senator McCain. It
comes from Section C over here, and it's from Ingrid Jackson (ph).
Ingrid (ph)?
QUESTION: Senator McCain, I
want to know, we saw that Congress moved pretty fast in the face of an economic
crisis. I want to know what you would do within the first two years to make
sure that Congress moves fast as far as environmental issues, like climate
change and green jobs?
Great question. Somebody better talk
about step two on the economic crisis.
MCCAIN: Well, thank you.
Look, we are in tough economic times; we all know that. And let's keep -- never
forget the struggle that Americans are in today.
But when we can -- when we have an issue that we may hand our
children and our grandchildren a damaged planet, I have disagreed strongly with
the Bush administration on this issue. I traveled all over the world looking at
the effects of greenhouse gas emissions, Joe Lieberman and I.
And I introduced the first legislation, and we forced votes on
it. That's the good news, my friends. The bad news is we lost. But we kept the
debate going, and we kept this issue to -- to posing to Americans the danger
that climate change opposes.
Now, how -- what's -- what's the best way of fixing it? Nuclear power. Senator Obama says
that it has to be safe or disposable or something like that.
Look, I -- I was on Navy ships that had nuclear power plants.
Nuclear power is safe, and it's clean, and it creates hundreds of thousands of
jobs.
This I like.
And -- and I know that we can reprocess the spent nuclear fuel.
The Japanese, the British, the French do it. And we can do it, too. Senator Obama has opposed that. We can move forward, and clean up
our climate, and develop green technologies, and alternate -- alternative
energies for -- for hybrid, for hydrogen, for battery-powered cars, so that we
can clean up our environment and at the same time get our economy going by
creating millions of jobs.
This I like very much.
We can do that, we as Americans, because we're the best
innovators, we're the best producers, and 95 percent of the people who are our
market live outside of the
95 percent what?
BROKAW: Senator Obama?
OBAMA: This is one of the
biggest challenges of our times.
OBAMA: And it is absolutely
critical that we understand this is not just a challenge, it's an opportunity,
because if we create a new energy economy, we can create five million new jobs,
easily, here in the
Five million, easily? But won’t that be from
big companies with CEOs? Wouldn’t you be giving them tax incentives to get into
the energy business? Or do you think small businesses can do nuclear tech?
It can be an engine that drives us into the future the same way
the computer was the engine for economic growth over the last couple of
decades.
And we can do it, but we're going to have to make an investment.
The same way the computer was originally invented by a bunch of government
scientists who were trying to figure out, for defense purposes, how to
communicate, we've got to understand that this is a national security issue, as
well.
And that's why we've got to make some investments and I've
called for investments in solar, wind, geothermal. Contrary to what Senator
McCain keeps on saying, I favor nuclear power as one component of our overall
energy mix.
Somebody say a percentage. Geothermal means butkis,
and everybody knows it.
But this is another example where I think it is important to
look at the record. Senator McCain and I actually agree on something. He said a
while back that the big problem with energy is that for 30 years, politicians
in
What Senator McCain doesn't mention is he's been there 26 of
them. And during that time, he voted 23 times against alternative fuels, 23
times.
So it's easy to talk about this stuff during a campaign, but
it's important for us to understand that it requires a sustained effort from
the next president.
One last point I want to make on energy. Senator McCain talks a
lot about drilling, and that's important, but we have three percent of the
world's oil reserves and we use 25 percent of the world's oil.
Because
So what that means is that we can't simply drill our way out of
the problem. And we're not going to be able to deal with the climate crisis if
our only solution is to use more fossil fuels that create global warming.
I’ve heard that soundbite 100 times.
McCain already said he’s for all alternatives. Are you deaf?
We're going to have to come up with alternatives, and that means
that the
We've got to make sure that we're giving them the energy that
they need or helping them to create the energy that they need.
To hell with
BROKAW: Gentlemen, you may
not have noticed, but we have lights around here. They have red and green and
yellow and they are to signal...
OBAMA: I'm just trying to
keep up with John.
MCCAIN: Tom, wave like that
and I'll look at you.
BROKAW: All right, Senator.
Here's a follow-up to that, one-minute discussion. It's a simple
question.
MCCAIN: Sure.
BROKAW: Should we fund a
Manhattan-like project that develops a nuclear bomb to deal with global energy
and alternative energy or should we fund 100,000 garages across
MCCAIN: I think pure
research and development investment on the part of the
Smart answer.
By the way, my friends, I know you grow a little weary with this
back-and-forth. It was an energy bill on the floor of the Senate loaded down
with goodies, billions for the oil companies, and it was sponsored by Bush and
Cheney.
You know who voted for it? You might never know. That one. You know who voted against it? Me. I have fought
time after time against these pork barrel -- these
bills that come to the floor and they have all kinds of goodies and all kinds
of things in them for everybody and they buy off the votes.
I vote against them, my friends. I vote against them. But the
point is, also, on oil drilling, oil drilling offshore now is vital so that we
can bridge the gap. We can bridge the gap between imported oil, which is a
national security issue, as well as any other, and it will reduce the price of
a barrel of oil, because when people know there's a greater supply, then the
cost of that will go down.
That's fundamental economics. We've got to drill offshore, my
friends, and we've got to do it now, and we can do it.
And as far as nuclear power is concerned, again, look at the
record. Senator Obama has approved storage and
reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel.
Gaffe.
And I'll stop, Tom, and you didn't even wave. Thanks.
BROKAW: Thank you very much,
Senator.
Next question for you, Senator Obama,
and it comes from the E section over here and it's from Lindsey Trellow (ph).
Lindsey?
QUESTION: Senator, selling
health care coverage in
Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity?
OBAMA: Well, you know, as I
travel around the country, this is one of the single most frequently asked
issues that I get, is the issue of health care. It is breaking family budgets.
I can't tell you how many people I meet who don't have health insurance.
If you've got health insurance, most of you have seen your
premiums double over the last eight years. And your co-payments and deductibles
have gone up 30 percent just in the last year alone. If you're a small
business, it's a crushing burden.
So one of the things that I have said from
the start of this campaign is that we have a moral commitment as well as an
economic imperative to do something about the health care crisis that so many
families are facing.
So here's what I would do. If you've got health care already,
and probably the majority of you do, then you can keep your plan if you are
satisfied with it. You can keep your choice of doctor. We're going to work with
your employer to lower the cost of your premiums by up to $2,500 a year.
And we're going to do it by investing in prevention. We're going
to do it by making sure that we use information technology so that medical
records are actually on computers instead of you filling forms out in
triplicate when you go to the hospital. That will reduce medical errors and
reduce costs.
Oh lovely. HIPAA doesn’t save money, but hey. I’m in the biz. I can
use the subsidy.
If you don't have health insurance, you're going to be able to
buy the same kind of insurance that Senator McCain and I enjoy as federal
employees. Because there's a huge pool, we can drop the costs. And nobody will
be excluded for pre-existing conditions, which is a huge problem.
Smells like single-payer.
Now, Senator McCain has a different kind of approach. He says
that he's going to give you a $5,000 tax credit. What he doesn't tell you is
that he is going to tax your employer-based health care benefits for the first
time ever.
So what one hand giveth, the other
hand taketh away. He would also strip away the
ability of states to provide some of the regulations on insurance companies to
make sure you're not excluded for pre-existing conditions or your mammograms
are covered or your maternity is covered. And that is fundamentally the wrong
way to go.
Hmm. Good point. But is that really how the market would work?
In fact, just today business organizations like the United
States Chamber of Commerce, which generally are pretty supportive of
Republicans, said that this would lead to the unraveling of the employer-based
health care system.
Meaning McCain’s plan is bold.
That, I don't think, is the kind of change that we need. We've
got to have somebody who is fighting for patients and making sure that you get
decent, affordable health care. And that's something that I'm committed to
doing as president.
BROKAW: Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Well, thank you for
the question. You really identified one of the really major challenges that
What is the transition point between a cost going up and a cost
skyrocketing?
And we need to do all of the things that are necessary to make
it more efficient. Let's put health records online, that will reduce medical
errors, as they call them. Let's have community health centers. Let's have
walk-in clinics. Let's do a lot of things to impose efficiencies.
Hey both of them are for the subsidy. A new hip replacement,
$250,000 An electronic insurance form, priceless.
But what is at stake here in this health care issue is the fundamental
difference between myself and Senator Obama. As you notice, he starts talking about government.
He starts saying, government will do this and government will do that, and then
government will, and he'll impose mandates.
If you're a small business person and you don't insure your
employees, Senator Obama will fine you. Will fine you. That's remarkable. If you're a parent and
you're struggling to get health insurance for your children, Senator Obama will fine you.
I want to give every American a $5,000 refundable tax credit.
They can take it anywhere, across state lines. Why not? Don't we go across
state lines when we purchase other things in
Good idea. And yeah it will shake up the market.
And if you do the math, those people who have employer-based
health benefits, if you put the tax on it and you have what's left over and you
add $5,000 that you're going to get as a refundable tax credit, do the math, 95
percent of the American people will have increased funds to go out and buy the
insurance of their choice and to shop around and to get -- all of those people
will be covered except for those who have these gold-plated Cadillac kinds of
policies.
OK if you say so.
You know, like hair transplants, I might need one of those myself. But the point is that we have got to give
people choice in
Was that a joke? Oh. Ha ha. Man this guy
is boring.
Obviously small business people want to give their employees
health insurance. Of course they all want to do that. We've got to give them
the wherewithal to do it. We can do it by giving them, as a start, a $5,000
refundable tax credit to go around and get the health insurance policy of their
choice.
BROKAW: Quick discussion. Is
health care in
Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: I think it's a
responsibility, in this respect, in that we should have available and
affordable health care to every American citizen, to every family member. And
with the plan that -- that I have, that will do that.
Good answer.
But government mandates I -- I'm always a little nervous about.
But it is certainly my responsibility. It is certainly small-business people
and others, and they understand that responsibility. American citizens
understand that. Employers understand that.
But they certainly are a little nervous when Senator Obama says, if you don't get the health care policy that I
think you should have, then you're going to get fined.
And, by the way, Senator Obama has never mentioned
how much that fine might be. Perhaps we might find that out tonight.
OBAMA: Well, why don't --
why don't -- let's talk about this, Tom, because there was just a lot of stuff
out there.
BROKAW: Privilege, right or
responsibility. Let's start with that.
OBAMA: Well, I think it
should be a right for every American. In a country as wealthy as ours, for us
to have people who are going bankrupt because they can't pay their medical
bills -- for my mother to die of cancer at the age of 53 and have to spend the
last months of her life in the hospital room arguing with insurance companies
because they're saying that this may be a pre-existing condition and they don't
have to pay her treatment, there's something fundamentally wrong about that.
Holy smokes. He fell for it. Your
mother has a right to be cured of cancer. Jeez. This is what’s wrong with this guy.
So let me -- let me just talk about this fundamental difference.
And, Tom, I know that we're under time constraints, but Senator McCain through
a lot of stuff out there.
You’re damned right it’s a fundamental difference.
Number one, let me just repeat, if you've got a health care plan
that you like, you can keep it. All I'm going to do is help you to lower the
premiums on it. You'll still have choice of doctor. There's no mandate involved.
Small businesses are not going to have a mandate. What we're
going to give you is a 50 percent tax credit to help provide health care for
those that you need.
Now, it's true that I say that you are going to have to make
sure that your child has health care, because children are relatively cheap to
insure and we don't want them going to the emergency room for treatable
illnesses like asthma.
And when Senator McCain says that he wants to provide children
health care, what he doesn't mention is he voted against the expansion of the
Children's Health Insurance Program that is responsible for making sure that so
many children who didn't have previously health insurance have it now.
We went over the SCHIP program in detail elsewhere, but at least he
was honest and said ‘expansion’.
Now, the final point I'll make on this whole issue of government
intrusion and mandates -- it is absolutely true that I think it is important
for government to crack down on insurance companies that are cheating their
customers, that don't give you the fine print, so you end up thinking that
you're paying for something and, when you finally get sick and you need it,
you're not getting it.
So you’re only going to fine insurance companies that don’t provide
coverage mandated by the government?
And the reason that it's a problem to go shopping state by
state, you know what insurance companies will do? They will find a state --
maybe
That's how in banking it works. Everybody goes to
That would be
And in that situation, what happens is, is that the protections
you have, the consumer protections that you need, you're not going to have
available to you.
That is a fundamental difference that I have with Senator
McCain. He believes in deregulation in every circumstance. That's what we've
been going through for the last eight years. It hasn't worked, and we need
fundamental change.
Cliché.
BROKAW: Senator, we want to
move on now. If we'd come back to the hall here, we're going to shift gears
here a little bit and we're going to go to foreign policy and international
matters, if we can...
MCCAIN: I don't believe that
-- did we hear the size of the fine?
BROKAW: Phil Elliott (ph) is
over here in this section, and Phil Elliott (ph) has a question for Senator
McCain.
Phil?
QUESTION: Yes. Senator McCain,
how will all the recent economic stress affect our nation's ability to act as a
peacemaker in the world?
MCCAIN: Well, I thank you
for that question, because there's no doubt that history shows us that nations
that are strong militarily over time have to have a strong economy, as well.
And that is one of the challenges that
But having said that,
But the fact is,
MCCAIN: So we are
peacemakers and we're peacekeepers. But the challenge is to know when the
United States of American can beneficially effect the outcome of a crisis, when
to go in and when not, when American military power is worth the expenditure of
our most precious treasure.
And that question can only be answered by someone with the
knowledge and experience and the judgment, the judgment to know when our
national security is not only at risk, but where the United States of America
can make a difference in preventing genocide, in preventing the spread of
terrorism, in doing the things that the United States has done, not always
well, but we've done because we're a nation of good.
And I am convinced that my record, going back to my opposition
from sending the Marines to Lebanon, to supporting our efforts in Kosovo and
Bosnia and the first Gulf War, and my judgment, I think, is something that I'm
-- a record that I'm willing to stand on.
Senator Obama was wrong about
We don't have time for on-the-job training, my friends.
Solid. Rehearsed, expected, but solid.
BROKAW: Senator Obama, the economic constraints on the
OBAMA: Well, you know,
Senator McCain, in the last debate and today, again, suggested that I don't
understand. It's true. There are some things I don't understand.
I don't understand how we ended up invading a country that had
nothing to do with 9/11, while Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are setting up base
camps and safe havens to train terrorists to attack us.
That was Senator McCain's judgment and it was the wrong
judgment.
And Al Qaeda is only in
When Senator McCain was cheerleading
the president to go into
That was the wrong judgment, and it's been costly to us. So one
of the difficulties with
Support the troops, screw the mission. That same
old political canard.
But it's also put an enormous strain on our budget. We've spent,
so far, close to $700 billion and if we continue on the path that we're on, as
Senator McCain is suggesting, it's going to go well over $1 trillion.
We're spending $10 billion a month in
And we need that $10 billion a month here in the United States
to put people back to work, to do all these wonderful things that Senator
McCain suggested we should be doing, but has not yet explained how he would pay
for.
Uh. Hold on here… Never mind. Go ahead.
Now, Senator McCain and I do agree, this is the greatest nation
on earth. We are a force of good in the world. But there has never been a
nation in the history of the world that saw its economy decline and maintained
its military superiority.
So what happened to the
And the strains that have been placed on our alliances around
the world and the respect that's been diminished over the last eight years has
constrained us being able to act on something like the genocide in Darfur, because we don't have the resources or the allies
to do everything that we should be doing.
So where is your Senate resolution?
That's going to change when I'm president, but we can't change
it unless we fundamentally change Senator McCain's and George Bush's foreign
policy. It has not worked for
BROKAW: Senator Obama, let me ask you if -- let's see if we can establish
tonight the Obama doctrine and the McCain doctrine
for the use of United States combat forces in situations where there's a
humanitarian crisis, but it does not affect our national security.
Stupid question.
Take the
What is the Obama doctrine for use of
force that the
OBAMA: Well, we may not
always have national security issues at stake, but we have moral issues at
stake.
If we could have intervened effectively in the Holocaust, who
among us would say that we had a moral obligation not to go in?
Didn’t we?
If we could've stopped
So when genocide is happening, when ethnic cleansing is
happening somewhere around the world and we stand idly by, that diminishes us.
OBAMA: And so I do believe
that we have to consider it as part of our interests, our national interests,
in intervening where possible.
But understand that there's a lot of cruelty around the world.
We're not going to be able to be everywhere all the time. That's why it's so
important for us to be able to work in concert with our allies.
Let's take the example of
We could be providing logistical support, setting up a no-fly
zone at relatively little cost to us, but we can only do it if we can help
mobilize the international community and lead. And that's what I intend to do
when I'm president.
BROKAW: Senator McCain, the
McCain Doctrine, if you will.
MCCAIN: Well, let me just
follow up, my friends. If we had done what Senator Obama
wanted done in Iraq, and that was set a date for withdrawal, which General Petraeus, our chief -- chairman of our Joint Chiefs of
Staff said would be a very dangerous course to take for America, then we would
have had a wider war, we would have been back, Iranian influence would have
increased, al Qaeda would have re- established a base.
Pow.
There was a lot at stake there, my friends. And I can tell you
right now that Senator Obama would have brought our
troops home in defeat. I'll bring them home with victory and with honor and
that is a fundamental difference.
The
But it also has to be tempered with our ability to beneficially
affect the situation. That requires a cool hand at the tiller. This requires a
person who understands what our -- the limits of our capability are.
We went in to Somalia as a peacemaking organization, we ended up
trying to be -- excuse me, as a peacekeeping organization, we ended up trying
to be peacemakers and we ended up having to withdraw in humiliation.
In
So you have to temper your decisions with the ability to
beneficially affect the situation and realize you're sending
I've been in them all my life. And I can tell you right now the
security of your young men and women who are serving in the military are my
first priority right after our nation's security.
And I may have to make those tough decisions. But I won't take
them lightly. And I understand that we have to say never again to a Holocaust
and never again to
OK. Thank you very much Commander McCain.
BROKAW: Senator McCain,
thank you very much.
Next question for Senator Obama, it
comes from the F section and is from Katie Hamm (ph). Katie?
QUESTION: Should the
Oooh Bullseye question!
OBAMA: Katie, it's a
terrific question and we have a difficult situation in
So what happened was we got distracted, we diverted resources,
and ultimately bin Laden escaped, set up base camps in the mountains of
They are now raiding our troops in
Yes because of all the bombs in Wazirastan
are killing Americans left and right.
They are plotting to kill Americans right now. As Secretary
Gates, the defense secretary, said, the war against terrorism began in that
region and that's where it will end. So part of the reason I think it's so
important for us to end the war in Iraq is to be able to get more troops into
Afghanistan, put more pressure on the Afghan government to do what it needs to
do, eliminate some of the drug trafficking that's funding terrorism.
Yay. War on Drugs part two!
But I do believe that we have to change our policies with
Whoa! Dictator? Them’s fightin’ words. I
can’t believe he called Musharraf a dictator. Musharraf stepped
down. He took off the uniform. Obama you idiot! The
ISI is double dealing here…
OBAMA: What I've said is
we're going to encourage democracy in
To whom? Encourage whom? You clearly don’t understand who the parties
are..
And if we have Osama bin Laden in our sights and the Pakistani
government is unable or unwilling to take them out, then I think that we have
to act and we will take them out. We will kill bin Laden; we will crush Al Qaida. That has to be our biggest national security
priority.
BROKAW: Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Well, Katie (ph), thank you.
You know, my hero is a guy named Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy
Roosevelt used to say walk softly -- talk softly, but carry a big stick.
Senator Obama likes to talk loudly.
Damn right he does.
In fact, he said he wants to announce that he's going to attack
Pow!
You know, if you are a country and you're trying to gain the
support of another country, then you want to do everything you can that they
would act in a cooperative fashion.
When you announce that you're going to launch an attack into
another country, it's pretty obvious that you have the effect that it had in
Exactly what Obama accuses Bush of.
Now, let me just go back with you very briefly. We drove the
Russians out with -- the Afghan freedom fighters drove the Russians out of
Now, our relations with
Now, General Petraeus had a strategy,
the same strategy -- very, very different, because of the conditions and the
situation -- but the same fundamental strategy that succeeded in
Blam! As Palin
said as well.
We need to help the Pakistani government go into
And by working and coordinating our efforts together, not
threatening to attack them, but working with them, and where necessary use
force, but talk softly, but carry a big stick.
OBAMA: Tom, just a...
BROKAW: Senator McCain...
OBAMA: ... just a quick
follow-up on this. I think...
MCCAIN: If we're going to
have follow-ups, then I will want follow-ups, as well.
BROKAW: No, I know. So but I
think we get at it...
MCCAIN: It'd be fine with
me. It'd be fine with me.
BROKAW: ... if I can, with
this question.
OBAMA: Then let's have one.
BROKAW: All right, let's
have a follow-up.
MCCAIN: It'd be fine with
me.
OBAMA: Just -- just -- just
a quick follow-up, because I think -- I think this is important.
BROKAW: I'm just the hired
help here, so, I mean...
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: You're doing a great
job, Tom.
Look, I -- I want to be very clear about what I said. Nobody
called for the invasion of
What I said was the same thing that the audience here today
heard me say, which is, if
Now, that I think has to be our policy, because they are
threatening to kill more Americans.
..And they are evildoers.
Now, Senator McCain suggests that somehow, you know, I'm green
behind the ears and, you know, I'm just spouting off,
and he's somber and responsible.
MCCAIN: Thank you very much.
OBAMA: Senator McCain, this
is the guy who sang, "Bomb, bomb, bomb
This is the person who, after we had -- we hadn't even finished
Ah yes, the famous McCain three word foreign policy.
So I agree that we have to speak responsibly and we have to act
responsibly. And the reason
Oh.. he said it again.
Jihadis assassinated Bhutto, you clown. Musharraf was
right.
This is the kind of policies that ultimately end up undermining
our ability to fight the war on terrorism, and it will change when I'm
president.
MCCAIN: And, Tom, if -- if
we're going to go back and forth, I then -- I'd like to have equal time to go
-- to respond to...
BROKAW: Yes, you get the...
MCCAIN: ... to -- to --
to...
BROKAW: ... last word here,
and then we have to move on.
MCCAIN: Not true. Not true.
I have, obviously, supported those efforts that the
I understand what it's like to send young American's in harm's
way. I say -- I was joking with a veteran -- I hate to even go into this. I was
joking with an old veteran friend, who joked with me, about
But the point is that I know how to handle these crises. And
Senator Obama, by saying that he would attack
I'll get him no matter what and I know how to do it. But I'm not
going to telegraph my punches, which is what Senator Obama
did. And I'm going to act responsibly, as I have acted responsibly throughout
my military career and throughout my career in the United States Senate.
And we have fundamental disagreements about the use of military
power and how you do it, and you just saw it in response to previous questions.
No kidding.
BROKAW: Can I get a quick
response from the two of you about developments in
The commander said we cannot win there. We've got to get it down
to a low level insurgency, let the Afghans take it over. Cowper-Coles said what
we need is an acceptable dictator.
If either of you becomes president, as one of you will, how do
you reorganize
OBAMA: I'll be very brief.
We are going to have to make the Iraqi government start taking more responsibility, withdraw our troops in a responsible way
over time, because we're going to have to put some additional troops in
General McKiernan, the commander in
I don't think he has to be a dictator. And we want a democracy
in
OK. That makes sense. I guess McKiernan is Obama’s
pet general. He can’t bring himself to acknowledge Petraeus.
BROKAW: Senator McCain,
briefly.
MCCAIN: General Petraeus has just taken over a position of responsibility,
where he has the command and will really set the tone for the strategy and
tactics that are used.
And I've had conversations with him. It is the same overall
strategy. Of course, we have to do some things tactically, some of which
Senator Obama is correct on.
We have to double the size of the Afghan army. We have to have a
streamlined NATO command structure. We have to do a lot of things. We have to
work much more closely with the Pakistanis.
But most importantly, we have to have the same strategy, which
Senator Obama said wouldn't work, couldn't work,
still fails to admit that he was wrong about Iraq.
Pow.
He still will not admit that he was wrong about the strategy of
the surge in
And once they feel secure, then they lead normal, social,
economic, political lives, the same thing that's happening in
So I have confidence that General Petraeus,
working with the Pakistanis, working with the Afghans, doing the same job that
he did in
Great answer. And correct too.
BROKAW: Senator McCain, this
question is for you from the Internet. It's from Alden (ph) in
How can we apply pressure to
MCCAIN: First of all, as I
say, I don't think that -- we're not going to have another Cold War with
But have no doubt that Russia's behavior is certainly outside
the norms of behavior that we would expect for nations which are very wealthy,
as Russia has become, because of their petro dollars.
Now, long ago, I warned about Vladimir Putin.
I said I looked into his eyes and saw three letters, a K, a G and a B. He has
surrounded himself with former KGB apparatchiks. He has gradually repressed
most of the liberties that we would expect for nations to observe, and he has
exhibited most aggressive behavior, obviously, in
I said before, watch
We've got to show moral support for
Measured but firm.
MCCAIN: We've got to show
moral support for
We have to make the Russians understand that there are penalties
for these this kind of behavior, this kind of naked aggression into
And so, of course we want to bring international pressures to
bear on
But the Russians must understand that these kinds of actions and
activities are not acceptable and hopefully we will use the leverage, economic,
diplomatic and others united with our allies, with our allies and friends in
Nicely done. Notice how he alludes
to exclusion from the G8 but doesn’t exactly say so. Smooth.
BROKAW: Senator Obama.
MCCAIN: It will not be a
re-ignition of the Cold War, but
BROKAW: Senator Obama? We're winding down, so if we can keep track of the
time.
OBAMA: Well, the resurgence
of
Of course you do.
But we can't just provide moral support. We've got to provide
moral support to the Poles and
He’s winging it here.
The other thing we have to do, though, is we've got to see
around the corners. We've got to anticipate some of these problems ahead of
time. You know, back in April, I put out a statement saying that the situation
in
You put out a statement?
And you knew that if the Russians themselves were trying to
obtain some of these territories or push back against
We haven't been doing enough of that. We tend to be reactive.
That's what we've been doing over the last eight years and that has actually
made us more safe. That's part of what happened in
We've got to be much more strategic if we're going to be able to
deal with all of the challenges that we face out there.
We have to be more strategic and see around corners.
And one last point I want to make about
BROKAW: This requires only a
yes or a no. Ronald Reagan famously said that the
OBAMA: I think they've
engaged in an evil behavior and I think that it is important that we understand
they're not the old
That sounds like a sentence my 13 year old daughter would write. I
swear to God.
BROKAW: Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Maybe.
(LAUGHTER)
(me too)
BROKAW: Maybe.
MCCAIN: Depends on how we
respond to
Obviously energy is going to be a big, big factor. And
But the Russians, I think we can deal with them but they've got
to understand that they're facing a very firm and determined
Finesse.
BROKAW: All right. We're
going to try to get in two more questions, if we can. So we have to move along.
Over in section A, Terry Chary (ph) -- do I have that right, Terry? QUESTION:
Senator, as a retired Navy chief, my thoughts are often with those who serve
our country. I know both candidates, both of you, expressed support for
QUESTION: If, despite your
best diplomatic efforts,
MCCAIN: Well, thank you,
Terry (ph). And thank you for your service to the country.
I want to say, everything I ever learned about leadership I
learned from a chief petty officer. And I thank you, and I thank you, my
friend. Thanks for serving.
Let -- let -- let me say that we obviously would not wait for
the United Nations Security Council. I think the realities are that both
And our challenge right now is the Iranians continue on the path
to acquiring nuclear weapons, and it's a great threat. It's not just a threat
-- threat to the state of
If
Nuclear dominoes? If
What would you do if you were the Israelis and the president of
a country says that they are -- they are determined to wipe you off the map,
calls your country a stinking corpse?
He knows this.
Now, Senator Obama without
precondition wants to sit down and negotiate with them, without preconditions.
That's what he stated, again, a matter of record.
I want to make sure that the Iranians are put enough -- that we
put enough pressure on the Iranians by joining with our allies, imposing
significant, tough sanctions to modify their behavior. And I think we can do
that.
I think, joining with our allies and friends in a league of democracies, that we can effectively abridge their behavior,
and hopefully they would abandon this quest that they are on for nuclear
weapons.
‘Abridge’ good word. But don’t use it again. It goes nowhere.
But, at the end of the day, my friend, I have to tell you again,
and you know what it's like to serve, and you know what it's like to sacrifice,
but we can never allow a second Holocaust to take place.
BROKAW: Senator Obama?
OBAMA: Well, Terry, first
of all, we honor your service, and we're grateful for it.
We cannot allow
Yeah I think I just heard that.
And so it's unacceptable. And I will do everything that's
required to prevent it.
And we will never take military options off the table. And it is
important that we don't provide veto power to the United Nations or anyone else
in acting in our interests.
It is important, though, for us to use all the tools at our
disposal to prevent the scenario where we've got to make those kinds of
choices.
That sounds exactly like George W. Bush. Did I hear him right? Was
that Obama?
And that's why I have consistently said that, if we can work
more effectively with other countries diplomatically to tighten sanctions on
Iran, if we can reduce our energy consumption through alternative energy, so
that Iran has less money, if we can impose the kinds of sanctions that, say,
for example, Iran right now imports gasoline, even though it's an oil-producer,
because its oil infrastructure has broken down, if we can prevent them from
importing the gasoline that they need and the refined petroleum products, that
starts changing their cost-benefit analysis. That starts putting the squeeze on
them.
I don’t have as much faith in this ‘conserve oil in
Now, it is true, though, that I believe that we should have
direct talks -- not just with our friends, but also with our enemies -- to
deliver a tough, direct message to
If you do change your behavior, then it is possible for you to
re-join the community of nations.
There’s George Bush again. Wow.
Now, it may not work. But one of the things we've learned is, is that when we take that approach, whether it's in
When President Bush decided we're not going to talk to
Stupid. Wrong.
We've got to try to have talks, understanding that we're not
taking military options off the table.
BROKAW: All right,
gentlemen, we've come to the last question.
And you'll both be interested to know this comes from the
Internet and it's from a state that you're strongly contesting, both of you.
It's from Peggy (ph) in
She says, "What don't you know and how will you learn
it?"
(LAUGHTER)
Senator Obama, you get first crack at
that.
OBAMA: My wife, Michelle,
is there and she could give you a much longer list than I do. And most of the
time, I learn it by asking her.
But, look, the nature of the challenges that
we're going to face are immense and one of the things that we know about
the presidency is that it's never the challenges that you expect. It's the
challenges that you don't that end up consuming most of your time.
But here's what I do know. I know that I wouldn't be standing
here if it weren't for the fact that this country gave me opportunity. I came
from very modest means. I had a single mom and my grandparents raised me and it
was because of the help of scholarships and my grandmother scrimping on things
that she might have wanted to purchase and my mom, at one point, getting food
stamps in order for us to put food on the table.
Despite all that, I was able to go to the best schools on earth
and I was able to succeed in a way that I could not have succeeded anywhere
else in this country.
The mark of someone who hasn’t accomplished anything in the real
world is to talk about their school pedigree.
The same is true for Michelle and I'm sure the same is true for
a lot of you.
And the question in this election is: are we going to pass on
that same American dream to the next generation? Over the last eight years,
we've seen that dream diminish.
Incredible. The American dream was
diminshed by Bush. What a farce.
Wages and incomes have gone down. People have lost their health
care or are going bankrupt because they get sick. We've got young people who
have got the grades and the will and the drive to go to college, but they just
don't have the money.
And we can't expect that if we do the same things that we've
been doing over the last eight years, that somehow we
are going to have a different outcome.
And you talked about money for education how many times this
evening? I don’t recall anything like that.
We need fundamental change. That's what's at stake in this
election. That's the reason I decided to run for president, and I'm hopeful
that all of you are prepared to continue this extraordinary journey that we
call
But we're going to have to have the courage and the sacrifice,
the nerve to move in a new direction.
Thank you. BROKAW: Senator McCain, you get the last word.
Senator Obama had the opening. You're last up.
MCCAIN: Well, thank you,
Tom. And I think what I don't know is what all of us don't know, and that's
what's going to happen both here at home and abroad.
The challenges that we face are unprecedented. Americans are
hurting tonight in a way they have not in our generation.
There are challenges around the world that are new and different
and there will be different -- we will be talking about countries sometime in
the future that we hardly know where they are on the map, some Americans.
So what I don't know is what the unexpected will be. But I have
spent my whole life serving this country. I grew up in a family where my father
was gone most of the time because he was at sea and doing our country's
business. My mother basically raised our family.
I know what it's like in dark times. I know what it's like to
have to fight to keep one's hope going through difficult times. I know what
it's like to rely on others for support and courage and love in tough times.
I know what it's like to have your comrades
reach out to you and your neighbors and your fellow citizens and pick you up
and put you back in the fight.
That's what
And I'm asking the American people to give me another
opportunity and I'll rest on my record, but I'll also tell you, when times are
tough, we need a steady hand at the tiller and the great honor of my life was
to always put my country first.
Thank you, Tom.
BROKAW: Thank you very much,
Senator McCain.
I’m glad that’s over.
That concludes tonight's debate from here in
(APPLAUSE)
In addition to everything else, there is one more presidential
debate on Wednesday, October 15, at
Thank you, Senator McCain. Thank you, Senator Obama. Good night, everyone, from
END
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