Ramblings On Affirmative Action

I guess it's my turn up on the game called "Lets Discuss Affirmative Action!" My turn in the mix comes from a blog entry made by LaShawn.

Generally, the "discussion" about affirmative action centers around statistics "showing" that those who are benefitted by affirmative action are not worthy.
Or, the "discussion" can also center around the perception that Blacks' self-esteem is some how damaged. Or, the "discussion" centers around how whites perceive Blacks to be incompetant.

I'll try to address those issues, but I'll do so by gathering previous comments that I've made. I've added more to some of the initial comments.

My ramblings start here.

The SATs are said to be predictors of first year grades only, but people assume it's a predictor of success in school. Additionally, the SAT score is more likely to predict the economic status of the student vs. the performance of the student in school. Furthermore, the highschool grades of Black students are better predictors of success in college than the SAT score.

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Here is the experience of a former fling who worked in the admissions department of a major university.

When she wanted to go to a new school, typically mostly minority, she had to justify the school visit. Then, after the visit, if the high school had little or no responses, she had to justify why they should try again.

She felt it was a double standard, and from what I was told, it was a double standard. This is how she addressed it.

She created a list of high schools that the university always went to for prospective students. She determined the high school's application rate, the high school's student rejection rate, and the acceptance rate of students who went to the high school they recruited.

Later, when she was asked to justify why she should return to the school to recruit, she used the list and statistics and responded by asking why they went to certain schools although they received similar poor responses.

When she left the school to pursue other career interests, she wondered what would happen to the school's minority recruiting efforts. It was clear to her that the people she left behind would not go beyond their, white, comfort zone.

Armstrong Williams has written something similar to this when he has written about finding Blacks to work at the Supreme Court as clerks. He stated that he found it offensive when other justices on the court said they could not find qualified Blacks. Williams said the justices had to look beyond the Yale's and Harvard's. He also said that those who were qualified and were offered positions, would turn them down because of other offers.

Something else. Rush Limbaugh has stated that he would not go out of his way to expand the pool of minority candidates because it would lead to "quotas. " So, let me ask you. If you say you want to find qualified Blacks, but you continue to go to the same white sources, what's going to happen?

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When responding to someone who said that affirmative action causes people to have no incentitive to do well.

The incentive is graduating. The incentive is doing the best that you can do. Once you get in, you’re in, but you still have get through. There is no such thing as affirmative action for getting grades. However, there is a thing called “grading on the curve” which applies to the entire class. In other words, your comment is lacking.

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A Black student, with a C averge, gets into Harvard. The same C student gets into grad school with a C average.

Let that same Black person, as an adult, comments that he/she doesn’t read much, doesn’t pay attention to details, and gets others to look into the issues and summarize it for him.

People would yell and scream about the state of Blacks, wail against affirmative action, yada yada yada.

Yet for George W. Bush, silence.

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Viewpoint: as long as formerly all white universities have legacy preferences which give a leg up on Black students whose parents may not have been able to attend those universities, by law, affirmative action should remain.

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You will never see or read me argue using proportional representation. Blacks don’t attend elite universities, even when “qualified,” because of cost. Black students rely on loans in far greater proportion than white students rely on loans.

Blacks “drop out” of college in much greater proportion because of funding issues. That much was shown in an Urban League report.

The studies that "show" that Black students who they aledge entered as affirmative action students, have yet to show why the students left school. Was it funding? Did they transfer? Did they realize that school wasn't for them? Did they realize they weren't prepared? Other personal reasons? Does anyone know?

And what about the fact that the graduation rate of Blacks is shown to increased when the length of the study is increased? Meaning, when the period surveyed is increased from 4 to 6 years, it shows the graduation rate has increased.

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The Hopwood vs Texas Law School case was an interesting “anti-affirmative action” case. In the end, Hopwood got compensation of $1. “The Right” looked at it as a verification of “reverse discrimination.” But here’s the details that people over looked:

1. Hopwood would have still been denied because her undergrad school was not an accredited school which was the requirement for entrance to the law school.

2. Whites with lower test scores than her scores were accepted to the school.

3. The lawyers for Hopwood didn’t prove that she was denied entrance because of her race. There were other entrance requirements that she did not meet.

Linda Chavez’s CEO does “reviews” of schools to see if they are discriminating against white students. They reviewed the University of Virginia, and based on the reviews, “determined” that Black students were getting in who weren’t qualified. The problem with her analysis, is that the Black student’s graduation rate matched those of white students.

What lowered standards?

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Responding to someone who said that economic affirmative action would provide no complaints.

In Maryland, Gov. Erhlich changed the state college scholarship program to favor students in need vs. students with great scores. The white community in Maryland had a fit.

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The percentage of white Americans with a college degree is about 26%. The percentage of Black Americans with a college degree is about 12%. (That’s from memory).

So, exactly what are we talking about here?

Additionally, 85% of Blacks who attend college, have scores within the standard deviation of the mean for those who attend the school.

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Let's play a statistical game. When you go to a white doctor, do you think that 50% of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class?

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Linda Chavez's organization, CEO, did an "affirmative action" study at the University of Virginia. The report "showed" that unqualified Blacks were given admittance to the school. Too bad for her that it turns out for the period of study, Blacks graduated UVa at a similar rate of whites.

The group also looked at Bowie University in Maryland. Her group claimed that more Black students were accepted to Bowie with lower grades than whites. The fact is, Bowie is an HBCU with an affirmative action program for white students. Not only that, but they combined the day program with Bowie's evening program. It turns out that the proportion of whites who attend Bowie's evening program is much higher than those who attend the day program. In short, like other affirmative action studies, the statistics are flawed.

Comments

[Ray G.]

The intellectual confusion surrounding affirmative action (in my humble opinion) transcends ideological categories. Critics and supporters have underestimated the significance of these policies. While the "racial preference" debate rages on, important assumptions about how institutions function to further "Inequality of opportunity" remain unchallenged.

I think affirmative action should stay true to its original purpose of enforcing "equality of opportunity", a purpose that in itself disallows racial preference. In that regard, I see Affirmative Action as an attempt to promote fairness and equality by affording those members of marginalized groups a fair chance to enter significant institutions.

[GDAWG]

Perhaps in th4e debate on AA I/m as a Black man is missing something.
After all, I try extremely hard to inform my opinion from not only a comtemporary perspective but a historical view as well so as not to lay waste my notions of fairness or evenhandedness.That is to try to come up with a humane solution for what ever that ails me.
So let me see.
For African Americans, a people, who because of their skin color, perhaps, hair kinky-ness or perhaps, their continent of origin, were made to toil unpaid, in the this land, among others, for well over 250 years.After beiing set loose on the land with only the ctolthes on their collective backs, they enjoyed some measure of "freedom" until the gay 90s (1890s) and early twentith century, which then heralded Plessy v Ferguson and Berea v Kentucky, respectively.I'm sure most know both court decisions. But just in case you don't. The former allowed, via Government sanction, racial apartheid in the public sphere and the latter racial aparthied in the private shpere. So this gave us another 60 years or so of Black victimization until atleast the 1960s. Some would argue that Brown v. Topeka Board of Education ended our tribulations, based on our race, but I wouldn't.
Then MLK, (You know him.The color blind guy!) came to fore and stated in one of his many books, ineffect, that some measure of redress was deserving of African American for the centuries of "official" / literal degradation we experienced in this land. Hence, Affirmative Action, of sorts. So lets do the math. Sixty years or so of "freedom" for us Negros. Three hundred years or so, of outright degradation, just because we Black."
Hmmm? Now we are faced with the highest incarceration rates in the world. Jobless rates among our men, in some cities. That, in Irag, the NYT and others, are arguing for jobs programs for young Iragi men with similar unemployment figures, so as not to draw them into the terrorist milieu. Hmmm?
Look we can give everyone else reparations be they American Indians, Interned Japanese Americans or the Jewish people and their decendants in Europe who were devastated by the Nazis and their sympathizers. These folks rightly deserve measurable redress.
Why people are so hung-up on Affirmative Action for "Blacks Americans" is sickening.
I feel, the Prgams should continued and in fact become more focused on Black Americans. It has come to being a spoils system, of sorts, in my opinion for anyone not white. There are too many "others" that feed at this specific table.
I think some form of reparation program for American Blacks, in place of affirmative action, is more appropiate to help remedy our racial conundrum.IN A REAL SENSE, I DON'T THINK WE WILL EVER SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF RACE AS LONG AS THE CURRNET GEOPOLITICAL MATRIX EXIST.
GDAWG

[LB]

I think affirmative action should stay true to its original purpose of enforcing "equality of opportunity", a purpose that in itself disallows racial preference.

Ditto.

[GDAWG]

In an "perfect world" notions of " Equality of Opportunity" sounds great.
I mean, this perfect world, to me, would have to have proper nutrition and shelter for our children. That means "family sustaining jobs" here in the US, and a slacking up on those good paying jobs that are exported. I mean, where are they going to export jobs to later? To the moon, for the next cheap "alien" work force. I imagine transportation expenses could be very high. Sorry I digressed.
Proper health care so that our children are not "dulled" by the effects of largely preventable illnesses.
Proper schooling so that relevant textbooks, qualified teachers and dedicated administrators exist in our community, to the degree they exist in other communitites. In fact, where a high school education would be by the indiviual state constitutionally required, with equal funding, where required. Just recently in NY state, it was argured and agreed to that a 8th grade education was all the state was mandated to require. (Just think, in this terribly complicated world, a guaranteed 8th grade education. Can you imagine?) Obviously, this crazy mandated measure was changed to a more humane version.
In a world where legacy admissions and athletic perferences are curtailed or stopped. These are truly racial preferences.
So, if we could achieved some modicum redress in these regards, then the notion of equality of opportunity will have some measure of moral weight. Otherwise,the whole argument against "special compensations" for African Americans is just "smoke and mirrors." And the hate continues in all its ugly racially charged manifestations. Oh yes, what about the " Gender Perference Programs" that has helped many white families into the upper economic echelons of this society. Why aren't the "haters" beefing about these programs? Hmmm?

GDAWG

[Ray G.]

GDawg,

Your point is solid and I understand where you coming from completely.

In addition, I'll add that in corporate America, many marginally competent and totally incompetent white men are hired daily. Some, because their white skin suits the conscious and unconscious racial preferences of their employer. Interestingly, those that are against Affirmative Action are keeping quiet about that as well, but I know better.

We know that Affirmative Action started as a simple anti-discrimination concept to promote "equality of opportunity" for those who had been systematically and historically disenfranchised (i.e. Women, working class whites and members of racial minorities). This was going well until its mission changed from anti-dicrimination enforcement to social engineering by means of quotas and other forms of preferential treatment.

AA's mission changed after the EEOC set certain guidelines that allowed racial imbalances in the work-places of America to stand as proof of racial discrimination. Once it could be assumed that racial imbalances proved racial discrimination, The social engineers began to put forth all types of remedies to correct these imbalances.

This in itself is not necessarily wrong, but somewhere along that road, it became misguided to the point where it became a black and white issue that is viciously debated by both sides even today.

My contention is that those that are opponents of affirmative action are not looking at the entire picture. They are distorting our understanding ("smoke and mirrors", yes) of the dynamics of racial discrimination. What should be at the forefront of the raging arguments and debates is that a real racial problem still exists in America (as you suggest Gdawg), and the fact that we need to develop a formerly oppressed people to the point where they can achieve proportionate representation on their own, given the equal opportunity to do so.

[LB]

No one said the world was perfect or that life was fair, but blatant skin color preferences, any way you cut them, any way you justify or excuse them, are abominable.

[GDAWG]

Ray G your points are well taken and spoken the same. And i'm sure we agree on many points as you have made clear to me.
However, LB comments perturbs me to some degree. I say don't stop at skin color perferences in regards to AA which is what the "haters perfer and sewrves as the gist of ongoing disingenous debate on AA. Go farther. For instance, an abomination for me is to discriminate / oppress people due to their skin color in getting equal opportunities in whatever sphere they choose to pursue as is the case for our people for eons, to take their land due to their skin color, to "abort" them out of existence due to their skin color, to deny them bank loans due to their skin color, to relegate their neighborhooods "redlined" due to their skin color, to have their children in substandard publically funded schools due to their skin color as opposed to the "other" schools who recieved more due to their white skin color, to deny them proper health care (when available) due to their skin color, etc.
I mean lets get real here. It may not be a fair or perfect world as you correctly note. But you can only keep the "proverbial foot" on their neck of folks for so long. Soon the foot will rot off due to sustained pressure and intransigence. And the folks whose necks have been pressed to the ground for eons will seek some measure of relief from this now, one footed monster. Hmmmm? What the outcome will be only God knows. But it can either be honest and civil or ?.
At some point in the life of this nation, hopefully, some measure of "real honesty" will prevail on the issue of resolving our racial conundrum. Or god help us!
So, again, I argue that there must be specific redress for African Americans, other than exportation to who knows where or genocide or virtual reenslavement. And I'm not kidding.

GDAWG

[GDAWG]

PS: I don't think African Americans, or any other person of African ancestry are discriminated against "simply" because of their skin color alone. This is much too simple. I feel its much more basic, in part, as Francis Cress-Welsing wrote about years ago in her book the Isis Papers, and that that has been made much more real by the revelations of the Human Genome Project, genetic inspired (germ) warfare and the like. BECAUSE ONE CAN NOW, FROM A GENETIC BASIS, DECIPHER ONES' GEOGRAPHIC REGION OF ORIGIN VIA GENES COMMON PERSONS OF THAT SPECIFIC GROUP, THE IMPLICATIONS OF RACIAL DISCRINATION ARE MORE PROFOUND AND DARKER. ESPECIALLY IF WE HAVE TO REVISIT NAZI ERA SCIENTIFIC IDEOLOGIES, DRESSED UP FOR TODAY'S WORLD.
So I make no apologies about the need for African Americans specific call for redress, and equally as important, protection against these folks!
GDAWG

[Ray G]

"No one said the world was perfect or that life was fair, but blatant skin color preferences, any way you cut them, any way you justify or excuse them, are abominable."

LB,
I respect your position.

At least we can agree that life is imperfect and unfair. So, how do you propose that we proceed?

should we just accept things as they are and leave it up to the individual to pull themselves up by their boot straps or should we as members of society, engage ourselves in the struggle to make things better or at least question an institutional system that seems so unfair, more so to people of color.